Transcript for Hope This Finds Me Well Episode 8. Nicholas: God Loves You, Even With The Gay
Sophie Shin This episode includes discussion of homophobia.
Nicholas When you’re talking about an issue, like it’s not personal, you’re not talking about a person., you don’t have to humanise the issue, you can just talk about it. And would literally hear people say to my face that they think being gay meant you were already separated from God, to some unredeemable status. [theme music fades in]
[music]
SS You’re listening to Hope This Finds Me Well, a podcast about the past and future versions of ourselves, and what we want to tell them. I’m Sophie, and my co hosts, Maria and Steph are here as well.
Steph Colbourn Hello, hello!
Maria Passingham Hello!
SS Each episode, we speak to someone who tried to figure out their future by writing themselves a letter. We want to find out if life turned out as they expected, and what’s important to them today. I’m so excited to introduce you to our letter writer today. Nicholas is a true ray of sunshine, striving to give love and respect to those around him, even if he doesn’t always get it back. Also, as you’ll hear in both the letter and our conversation, Nicholas is at a point where he’s doing a lot of working things out. How he sees himself, what’s important to him, and who he wants to bring on this journey with him. It’s clear that he’s a very thoughtful person. And I love that we got a little deeper in this conversation.
MP Yeah, we got pretty deep.
SS It was one of the most philosophical conversations that we’ve had. And I honestly think that’s because Nicholas is just like, so down to like —
MP Explore things!
SS Yeah. And he’s funny. He’s so funny.
SC So funny.
SS You can definitely, you’ll see it in his letter. But I think he talks about hard things in a way that isn’t intimidating. And there’s like, some light humor in there every once in a while, which makes it easier.
SC Yeah.
MP And also, when we were having discussions, he seemed really, he like, wanted to hear our points of view and like, take them on board and kind of make like a fuller picture, which I think we’re all guilty of, like not doing that a lot of the time. We’re just like, “no, this is my opinion” And he’s like, okay, I’m gonna listen to everyone’s and then make an informed and actually informed decision. And it’s lovely to have a conversation with someone like that. But also, I think that that shows that he’s a really brilliant person that actually wants to engage with other people.
SC Yeah, it especially comes out in an interview format. You know, like, if we’re sitting down to interview one person, you may feel like, then you’re just answering questions, right? Whereas Nicholas was like, oh, no, I’m taking this on as a conversation.
MP Right!
SS I think this letter has just so much in it, and we should just roll the tape for everyone.
SC Ah, yes.
Nicholas Hi, I’m Nicholas. I’m going to read my letter. The subject, which seems important was a letter from your past self, remember?
[music]
“Hey there, Happy 30th birthday. I know you’ve been dreading it for a long time, so maybe it isn’t so happy. Maybe it is. Happiness isn’t something that feels very possible right now. It’s been a hard couple of years. I’m sure you remember. I’m unsure how you’ll look back at this time in life, perhaps it was necessary to discover your true self. And perhaps you’re grateful now for this season. Perhaps you have come to peace with yourself, with your life. Perhaps you’ve radically changed it. Right now you feel pathetic. Accepting your sexuality after almost three decades and a lot of questionable life decisions will do that. But you don’t regret all of it. Not now. Hopefully not ever. You got perhaps God’s greatest gift because of those decisions. Had you come out as gay right after high school or on the heels of that horrible relationship before your marriage, you wouldn’t have your daughter. She’s so goddamn amazing. She’s kind of the only thing we’ve got going right now. Well, that your body looks pretty great since you’ve been keeping up your exercise and grooming. Please tell me you still run?
Hopefully, things are better with the wife. Whether you’re married or not. Either way, she used to be your best friend. I hope she is again. She really has been pretty great through all of this. I’m sure you remember a few very hurtful things she said out of anger or shame. But I don’t think she’d say them now. I hope not.
I’m so fearful of the future. like totally terrified. I don’t want to lose everyone. I don’t want to lose my family, my friends, my job. Okay, maybe I’d be cool without the job. Haha. Everything feels like it’s in jeopardy. The only way I know I can keep the people I love in my life is to keep living a lie. To keep hiding. My entire life has been a lie. Or at least a lie has been a part of my entire life. Did I keep on hiding? Do I still lie? Did I tell a select few people, more than the five or six who already know? Do I still do sessions? Does my heart hurt any less from them? Am I in love with anyone? Will I ever be? What is ‘in love’ anyway? Right now I’m still not convinced in love is any different than regular old love. Do I change my mind about this? I love plenty of people, always will. I hope my future isn’t scary. I hope you’re happy. I hope you live to read this. I hope you still know that God loves you. Even with the gay. He does. You’d better still know that.
I hope you fix things with your parents. Probably depends on if they ever find out. I hope your best friend doesn’t hate you now. I hope you’re living your dreams. I feel about two years away from being famous. So maybe I am. In which case hopefully some hacker doesn’t find this figure out it’s a super famous sexy guy and publish it for the world to see. Any press is good press they say if you’re not famous, I hope asking about it didn’t make you too upset. Did you ever start the new ban? Did you ever finish the TV show? Did you land a good acting agent? Did you start to model? Hopefully you fixed your teeth first. You’re seeing the dentist this Thursday. Yikes. Did you ever figure it out? Like really figure yourself out? Do you have an ounce of peace? It feels so far away right now.
They say time heals. I guess you’d know better than me. Anyway, try to enjoy your birthday. You still do birthday shopping every year. So fun. Get those vans and tight pants that always makes you feel better for at least 24 hours. But really, if you’re not doing better than when you were writing this, just do whatever will make you happy. You can’t live your whole life for everyone else. Live for your daughter and yourself. That’s all you’re really responsible for. I know it doesn’t feel like it but you’re still pretty young. You can still do all the things your heart aches for. Even if they haven’t come to fruition yet. I love you. Jesus loves you. I’m crying lol. Signed, you.
PS The Raiders are looking better. Right? They have to be, right?”
SS Amazing.
SC I have so many questions. Can I ask where in the world you are? Just curiosity.
Nicholas Yeah, I’m in Colorado, United States Colorado.
SC Nice. The Raiders thing threw me.
Nicholas I was born in California in a place called Inido. If you guys are familiar with Coachella Music Festival. It happens in Indio. And it’s about an hour and a half inland and south of LA and the Raiders were in LA when I was a kid.
SC So let’s like dig into this. Do you remember receiving it? How did it feel?
Nicholas Yeah, I opened it in the morning. And I think I remembered it was coming, maybe like a month before my birthday, and then I, you know, forgot about it by the time the day actually came. And so it was mixed emotion, you know, and so much had changed since writing that letter,
SC It seems like you felt very secure and accepting a new identity in terms of your sexuality and also your relationships. Do you… How do you identify now?
Nicholas Um, so I tell most people that I’m gay, it’s a tough line, and it’s just something I had to walk back over. Ultimately, it’s very complicated, I think for some people, I think for some people, it’s not. And for me, I think it was and so, you know, I don’t think that I was gay, when I was 15 years old. I don’t, you know, and I had attraction to men, but I did have attraction to females, and honestly, it went away. And so I would kind of subscribe to the sexuality is fluid theory. And maybe that’s not true for everybody. But I think it was true for me, and it changed over time. And while I don’t expect it to change now, I’m kind of like, well, I didn’t expect it to necessarily change then. So, I mean, it was always there. You know, I just think I was maybe more bisexual, growing up, and then with more life experience and sexual experiences and whatnot, I just ended up more on the gay side of the spectrum.
SC Yeah, I also think like all sexualities, like fluid and people change, and, you know, how you identify changes, and also what you think of as gay and what I think of is gay, or maybe not the same thing. You know? It’s not, it’s not like a small box that we all fit in, in the same way.
[music]
SS In his letter Nicholas asks himself a lot of questions, and talks about a bunch of his hopes for the future. It read like a stream of consciousness, And I was curious, thinking what was his headspace like when he wrote the letter? Llike did he feel the need to get it all down on a page.
Nicholas So then I was married to a woman, which I reference in it, and we had and have a daughter, and she’s about to turn six. The reason I wrote the letter was it was part of a curriculum, online course thing…it’s just kind of about like finding yourself and stepping into your life purpose, things like that. So one of the things was to write a letter to your future self, and they recommended this website. And I really didn’t know I was just in such an uncertain time, and such a searching time, and figuring this out. And it had been a little while, I think, about a year and a half, since I told my wife this, I just didn’t know what was gonna happen, you know, with us, and I, by no means did I get married with the intention of getting divorced. And, obviously, I knew, you know, I knew I had this, you know, secret or whatever, something I hadn’t shared, and I hadn’t been honest about and so I’ll own my part of that.
But I, I really did think that this would resolve itself. And so whether that was naive or not, obviously have a very Christian background, not necessarily growing up, but more like teenage years and young adulthood, very on the kind of charismatic supernatural side of the church. And so really, any help I had kind of sought out on this issue, or anything I’d gone after was fixing it, healing it, getting rid of it. That was my whole background with this sexuality, it was my struggle, it was my cross to bear or whatever you want to call it. And it was, it was a problem that I either had to live with, or get rid of. And so I really thought that that would be accomplished, that I would get married, and at some point, this temptation or whatever would go away. In actuality, it actually just got kind of worse.
I mentioned my job in the letter-
Nicholas [clip sfx] …lose my family, my friends, my job. Okay, maybe I’d be cool without the job. Haha…
Nicholas -So I actually worked at a nonprofit Christian organisation. And that was a very difficult part of the journey as well, you actually sign a contract, when you get hired saying you won’t be gay, I kid you not. And so if this ever got out, I would have been fired. And I worked there with family members, I worked there with two of my best friends. And so, I just couldn’t let them know or talk to them about or anything, just just on the chance that someone else they’re fine now and I lose my job and all the money for my family and everything like that.
SC I’m so sorry. That really is a very tangible example of how hard coming out can be. You literally had a contract being like, Hey, you will lose your job and financial support and potentially some loved ones. And I’m sorry that you had that extra added layer.
SS Can I ask how things are going with your wife or ex wife now? Are y’all still together?
Nicholas Yeah, so update! So in 2011 -
SC I love how like the mix of hilarious and serious you are. Even this whole letter — “it would be nice to lose my job”…
Nicholas Well, thank you. Yeah, I feel like that’s kind of my thing. You know like those comedies that are also really good dramas?, I feel like that’s just me.
Yeah, so we split up in September of 2019. And got officially divorced this last summer, right after I turned 30, actually. I would say right now are in a really good place we were, we were best friends when we were young, knew each other in high school, you know, we played music together. And that really brought us close. And honestly, you know, I know this sounds ridiculous to many people, I’m sure, but honestly, we felt like God told us to get married and led us to get married. And that was what sparked it, there wasn’t a crush there or anything that really brought us together, you know, outside of that. And then I think, with the, you know, changing your mind and being intentional about like, okay, I’m going to pursue this person is my future spouse, you know, you do develop deep feelings and things like that. So of course, I loved her, I wouldn’t marry someone I didn’t love. And I still do, she’ll always be this massively important and impactful figure in my life. She’s a mother of my daughter. And so I’m going to do everything I can, I think she’s gonna do everything she can, at this point, to maintain a good relationship and be able to be around each other and spend time together the three of us as a family, as appropriate. That’s something we’re very conscious about, and very intentional about. And there was definitely, around the splitting up, it was rough, and there was a lot of hurt and everything that happened, and I don’t think everything everyone did was right. You know, but I think we’re, we’re trying to do right by each other. We are our daughter’s parents. We do put her first but we also desire a friendship. And so we are consciously working towards that.
MP That’s great.
SC That’s literally so nice to hear. My parents have been divorced for like 15 years. And they have never said anything that nice about each other to this day.
MP I wonder because you said that when you got married, you were in love with her. But in your letter, you also talk about kind of wondering if you know what love is. And like, if you even believe in it, how do you feel about that now?
Nicholas I think I’m in a similar place as I was when I wrote the letter, I don’t think that’s something that’s been resolved. I’m unsure if it ever will be. In our generation, it’s kind of flipped to this very popular like ‘love is a choice’ thing has happened. I know a lot of people get married, and they go through counselling, and that’s always something that comes up ‘love is a choice’. And I don’t love that, I agree to an extent. And I think you can choose to show your love or not. Or you can choose actions that step towards love or away from love. So I do think there is a choice element to love, then there’s a feeling element to love, right? Some people it just doesn’t vibe. I don’t know about that one true love thing or that soulmate thing.
That’s where I kind of have, you know, a lot of confusion, I think. Yeah, maybe 10 years from now I’ll be married to some guy. And I’m like, Oh, this is my one true love. And now I understand that is possible. I acknowledge that’s possible. But I don’t I don’t know that that’ll happen, or should I even think.. I think people experience love differently.
[music]
SS Totally. I’m curious as to what your relationship with your own faith is now? Because it seems like it was something you were kind of, I don’t know, if you’re necessarily questioning it in your letter, but you definitely spoke to it. And it was obviously very important to you at that time. Do you still have that same relationship with your faith?
Nicholas Well, I am still faithful, I would still say I believe in God, I believe Jesus is my saviour. I tried my best to stay in relationship and connection with that. I’ve never defined God by his people, or how they act or what they do. My relationship with God needs to be with God. Right? And so my relationship with the church, I would say is very stained. It’s not in a, you know, in good shape.
SC Have you found other places or practices where you’re able to, like, you know, practice your connection with faith or with Jesus or-?
Nicholas I think there’s people you know, and ultimately, like the body of the church, like the church as defined as a scripture or something like that would would really ultimately just mean people who believe, that’s really what the church is and then you have This kind of westernised idea of what church means and the church, and so, you know, I have close friends, that are believers, that I can speak with. And probably for the rest of my life, I’ll find myself in difficult scenarios with people who I know do care about me, and I care about them, and we’re in relationship and they think that me being gay is wrong, and it’s a sin and it’s against God. And it’s something that’s going to come up, you know, in a lot of relationships, and I’ve kind of been navigating over the last year or really six months, because I wasn’t even six months after splitting up with my wife, I still wasn’t very open about this. What is necessary to be in relationship with someone? Or, or what are the boundaries on it that I put up? Where’s my line? You know, what, what do you have to believe or agree with me or anything like that to be in relationship with me? Ultimately, you don’t have to agree with me. But you do have to show some respect for me or my opinion, or my experience, if you start telling me what my experience is, and you’re not me, maybe I’ve got some problems. So I think I’m still kind of battling that. My faith in God is pretty unshaken. Everything else is pretty shaken.
SC I feel so happy for you and proud of you that you at least feel like you’re able to be open with yourself and some of the people around you. And I’m I’m queer, I have a lot of queer friends, I don’t know a single person who has lived their life with the privilege of not having to explain to some other person that they’re like a valid person, that world doesn’t exist, yet. So I think it’s important to have, you know, boundaries, or at least a level of protection over yourself.
[music]
There’s this really awesome, you know, how in our generation, we say like, oh, they’re coming out of the closet, like I’m coming out of the closet. I saw online this year and last year on like National Coming Out Day that the younger generation is talking about instead of coming out of the closet, they’re inviting people into the closet, like they’re inviting into their life to like, show themselves to. Because, you know, the whole concept of coming out of the closet is kind of like fucked up,
SS It puts responsibility on you, too.
SC Yeah and I didn’t put myself in this closet, like y’all did, yeah, I would have been fine. If you like, society wasn’t so messed up, I gotta just like live my life.
Nicholas This is, you know, the closet, living in that and under that, that’s something I am just, I feel like I’m still processing.
You know, I really hate playing the victim. An example I like to use is like, you know, when you’re a parent, you’ve experienced this other level of tired, sometimes you’re a parent, you have this kids baby or whatever, and you’re working full time, this whole thing, and then some, like, college kid comes up, and they’re like, I’m just so tired. And your inclination is to, pass judgement and be like, you don’t know what tired is right? And the truth is, they are tired, you know, to the extent of what their life is, and means and what they’ve experienced, they’re genuinely tired, and it doesn’t make their tired, less valid than your tired, even though you might literally have had less sleep and less energy, their tired is still valid. And so, you know, I, I try not to keep myself from going to this place where it’s like, oh, I had this burden or this, I don’t want to be that person. But at the same time,I feel a lot of shame about coming out at 30, to be honest, because now you have like 12 year olds who come out in Middle School, and then they like when, King at the dance, and everyone’s happy. And I’m like, what? That was not going on when I was 12! Like, so, years before anyone else was in the know, or my wife or anything like that. I would sit at a conversation with people in the church, and talk about this issue, as if it wasn’t personal, right. And so, when you’re talking about an issue, like it’s not personal, you’re not talking about a person. You don’t have to humanise the issue, you can just talk about it. And would literally hear people say to my face that they think being gay meant you were already separated from God, to some unredeemable status. People who believe we should still stone the gays. I kid you not. Like if you’re gay, you deserve to be killed by the very people you share your faith with. And I’ll just sit there stone cold and have this conversation and logically play it out and try to debate them based on scriptures or anything like that. But stuff like that over years just takes this emotional toll, and is really something to carry.
And I, you know, I don’t want to play the victim because we all have these, you know, things that hurt us throughout our lives or things we have to carry or deal with or whatever. But it’s very real living in that closet, you know, quote, unquote, can be a massive burden. And that’s me in an America that’s pretty accepting much less other places in the world where you don’t get that moment where it’s safe to come out. But even here, where it is, for the most part, there is still that threat of violence or hate or whatever is still very real. It’s still very out there. And it’s been said to my face, because they didn’t know that was me, they were talking about.
SC Yeah.
SS I also think we have an issue in our society sometimes where we think that just sharing your experience is playing the victim. That’s our shame working against us. That’s us being shameful of our own experience, really. And we should be sharing our experiences. And you can do it in a way where you, you’re not like woe is me. But I feel like there is something beautiful about just sharing stories.
SC You can acknowledge your privilege, while also sharing your trauma and things can exist at the same time. Like you can contain both of those things at the same time.
SS That’s what I was trying to say!
SC You’re not just your trauma, and you’re not just your privilege.
[MUSIC]
So do you have like a queer church or no?
Nicholas No, no, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t feel like I have a circle of any queer people, to be honest. I think, you know, everybody I know is like straight and married with a kid. And that’s pretty much the extent of my friendships. Most of the closest people in my life, pretty much everyone knows now. To be honest, I told my parents like, a week and a half ago, so that’s still pretty fresh.
Honestly, I, I want to be out. And I’ve questioned a lot why that is. And I think it’s a lot of things we’ve discussed here.I just want to live my life without constantly thinking about this.
I think that you get that crowd, largely in the church, but other people too, who are very like, oh, I’m tired of this gay thing being shoved down my throat. That’s something you hear all the time, right. And I, you know, what they don’t realise. And I think people in the queer community realise it. But I think what they don’t realise is that they are shoving their straightness in everybody’s face, literally, every single day. Their Facebook has a picture of them and their spouse or significant other, and they hold hands in public, and they kiss in public or kiss on videos on Facebook, or they talk about their celebrity crushes, or they tell a story about a date they went on in high school, their sexuality is a constant part of their social life, constant. And so to just live like that, like any straight person does, is perceived by a huge crowd of people as shoving it down their throats. But honestly, I just want to be able to live the same standard life routine as a straight person.
And so that’s the main reason I think I just want to go public with it is because I don’t want to be around ‘oh, yeah, I knew these people from church six years ago, but they I don’t think they know, do they know?’ And then I gotta navigate that, what can I say? And what should I and I just don’t want to live under it every day.
SC Yeah, you should be able to make out on the street with anyone you want. And then take a selfie while you’re doing it and post it later.
Nicholas As long as they also want to make out with you.
MP Yeah, and it’s safe to do so.
SC COVID is gone in this world [laughs].
[music]
SC What’s up with your job? Did you leave the job?
Nicholas Oh, yeah I’m sorry, yeah I did. I did leave the job, just a couple months ago. That’s primarily why like my parents, and some close friends and stuff have just recently found out in the last couple of months. So yeah, I’m in a new position now. You know, that course I was talking about that led me to do the letter? I actually work for that company?
SS Full circle, I love that.
Nicholas Yeah, so I’m their marketing and media director now. I was a chef at like a non-profit.
SC Wow, you can do everything. Chef, actor, marketing manager.
Nicholas Yeah. If people would start paying me for the acting and the song making and whatnot, then that, that would be ideal, but also not a great year for that.
SC When you say in the letter that you hope you fix things with your parents, was there other things? Or were you anticipating coming out to them? Or inviting them in?
Nicholas Yeah, things just things haven’t been great there. And they’re not outwardly hostile. There’s just a disconnect on so many levels. And, I definitely have that like, black sheep of the family thing going on. You know, that is what it is, and it’s where it is. And I don’t want to have resentment or hate or anything like that for ’em, I, I love them, and I’ll try to do my best going forward to love them as I can, as best I can. And, you know, coming out to them was difficult. And it to be honest, it went exactly like I thought, you know, I told some a few close friends, this is what’s gonna happen. You know, this is what my mom’s gonna do, what my dad’s gonna do, this what my brother… They all did exactly, you know what I expected. And I think, well, it would have been out of character for anyone in the room to say anything like, hey, you know, we still love you. Right? I think I was hoping someone would step up. And I feel like I tried to put it out there, just give them the opportunity. But it, you know, it didn’t happen. And so it didn’t happen. You know? Okay.
Doesn’t mean they don’t, you know, I don’t want to tell a whole story around something that isn’t necessarily true. And so I just kind of have to take it as it is, and move forward. So I’ll just try to be as thankful as I can, for what I have, I’ll do my best to act kind and loving and respectful towards, everyone I’m in relationship with kind of, regardless of how they act towards me.
SC Well, it’s a beautiful thing that you’re able to do that when you’re not receiving that from other people.
I also think there’s this whole narrative in media where like, you come out and then you know, someone gets upset and then someone else is like, ‘no, no, we we obviously we still love youn. And it’s like this very, like Hollywood moment. But like, that doesn’t happen coming out as like gradual. You come out a million times and a million ways. It’s like part of your life. And that’s shitty, but it’s not a one time thing that happens once in this like Hollywood bow tied beautiful way.
Nicholas Yeah. And I am I am one for trying to create real life Hollywood moments for myself. But yeah, it’s it’s, it’s definitely not that you know it. It’s just tricky. And I think that there’s been a few of those really beautiful, perfect moments with it, and a few of those really hard, awkward, difficult moments with it.
[music]
I heard a guy say once, I’ve never met anyone who regretted coming out. And that was like, really inspiring to me. And then I kind of was thinking like, well, there’s probably someone who came out and then got murdered for it. So I don’t know that that’s necessarily true. But I think the sentiment is nice. And you know, I don’t think ultimately I will, regret it.
SS Well, thank you so much for sharing that story. And for feeling like this is like a safe space to talk about it.
SC You start your letter, you say -
Nicholas CLIP SFX Happiness isn’t something that feels very possible right now.
SC Do you feel any amount of relief, or any clearer path to a possibility of happiness now?
Nicholas Yes, on the path. The truth is, I can sit here in this interview, and I can be pretty eloquent, and I can say what’s on my heart, in my mind, without really breaking too much. But I mean, I have been massively verge of manic depressant for years. And so that’s not all fixed. I think I’ve got better coping mechanisms that are tools to deal with it, I think I do have a lot more self awareness than I used to. I also don’t have this burden necessarily of hiding this big thing from the most important people in my life anymore.
So all of that helps, you know, I had this moment in 2019. And it was in the summer. And it was just before me and my wife had split up. And I remember having this getting through a day, you know, I got to the next day, and I thought, oh, yesterday I didn’t, I didn’t break down and cry, just have a breakdown, you know, an emotional breakdown. And it was like, the first time that a day had gone by without that in like, I didn’t exactly know, but it had been almost a year. And so I don’t do that every day. I’m in a better place. I probably do it once or twice a week.
But there’s a lot of factors, you know, and it’s it’s not just this being gay is not all of me obviously, it’s a part of me, but it’s not all of me and so that you know, there’s a lot of other reasons I’m not happy I really did kind of dedicate everything in my life to making it in music for so many years and just chasing after the kind of like entertainment industry or being an artist or being recognised as an artist or anything like that. And it just never happened, you know, and I, I was so confident and so driven and dedicated. And no part of it ever crossed my mind that I wouldn’t make it before I was 30. Like, I was 100% sure that that would happen. I don’t know if that’s arrogance, or what, but it didn’t. And I feel as far away as ever, right now. And so that’s a huge factor, too. That’s a huge reason why, you know, I still am not totally happy, and I’m still not content. I don’t have it all figured out. I’m not in the best place. But I’m not in the worst place, I am in a better place. And I have grown since writing the letter. And a lot has changed. And some of it’s been hard. And some of it’s been good. And I think that, you know, my ex wife would feel the same way. I didn’t want to ruin her life, that was a huge, huge priority of mine. I want to see her thrive and do well, and be happy, just as much as I want to see me do it. And so, you know, I hope that we’re both on that path. Ultimately.
SS Oh, that’s beautiful.
SC To me, it sounds like you sometimes are wondering if you’re being selfish or greedy or but like you’ve already dedicated so much of your life to protecting the hearts and feelings in lives of the people around you that quite frankly, you’re not being selfish. And you probably deserve to be honestly.
SS I feel like it’s been a common thread in some of our interviews, but just in general, and people in my life that are just not content, and they feel like they’ve failed, they feel like they haven’t done enough. And I feel like there’s something comforting and knowing that everyone kind of feels that way?
MP I did also hear something the other day about how if you’re always thinking about how you’re on the path for like, finding the things that are going to make you happy, then you miss the experience, which is like say your goal, right is to have a number one single the whole time you’re doing that and you’re having amazing experiences like recording with this person and getting place for two at first time. Well, all of those good things you don’t sit and enjoy, because you’re constantly thinking about the number one that you’re like trying to achieve. And then when if or when you get that, number one, you haven’t learned how to enjoy that stuff. So then even the thing that you thought was going to make you really happy, you can’t actually experience and actually enjoy that happiness. So like, obviously, it’s way more easier to say that stuff that stuff than to actually practise it but, you know, I think we all really have to try and learn to actually enjoy, like each of the little steps, have an aim and like really reach for something, but try and enjoy the stuff along the way. So that if you get that you know how to enjoy it. And if you don’t, you’ve still had all those good experiences.
Nicholas I think that’s is really wise. And I think it’s a good reminder. So thanks for saying that.
MP You’re welcome.
Nicholas I also at some point, I questioned, why do I want the things I want? I would challenge anyone to ask the question, What do I want? 1. Because I think sometimes we think we know and and then when you actually have to explain if you had to explain it out loud, what do you want? in your life, your life to be? It actually is kind of difficult? And then… why? Which is even more difficult. And so for me, yeah, I’ll be honest, I’d love to be like a famous person who acts in movies and sing songs and albums out and everything like that. But the reason I want it is not for the money and the fame and all of that, which would be wonderful. I’m not denying that…
I desire deeply to matter. Honestly, I want to matter, I want to have a purpose, I want to make an impact, I want to I want there to be some reason I was here, and to have bettered the world at large and some great way, that matters so much to me. And, and I’m just so aware that I don’t… in a way, you know, and I matter to people. And I that’s valuable. And the people in my life are value- I don’t want to discredit that. I just so aware that like everybody does. Everybody matters to somebody, and we’re all in these little pods of people who matter to each other and who love each other. It’s beautiful, but I don’t it doesn’t make me feel that way. I don’t know why. But I I want to matter and I fear I don’t and it’s just like Why? Why me? Why did I exist?
SS I feel like those questions are so innately human. You said it yourself. We matter to so many people, you know, like we do matter.
SC But we also don’t know how much we matter to people. You know, you might be thinking about what Maria just said and you thanked her for saying for the next seven years to come. We don’t know that and this moment. So you can’t go to Maria and say like, thank you so much what you said really mattered to me and Maria can’t take that away is mattering to someone. But realistically, every like act of kindness or selflessness or love that you give into the world can matter immensely. You don’t always get to see or experience how it matters to other people.
And that’s why you should be kind to everyone all the time.
MP I do want to say that if in seven years you’re feeling great about that, please track me down and tell me because that will make me feel amazing
Nicholas Okay, and I’m also gonna write a note: “think more like Steph”.
SC No, don’t, that’s doing yourself a huge disservice!
Nicholas It’s a really beautiful way to, I think, approach everyday life. And I think if you were fully bought in on that, you know, and really conscious about it, and, you know, I think your life would, would be really beautiful and have a lot of value and, and meaning and so I agree, I agree with your sentiment, and it is just, it’s just hard to weigh, you know, and it’s, how can I do best by the universe by the world at large by our species by those who are close to me and love me by the earth by everything, you know, how can my existence be as powerful and loving and positive as possible while I’m here?
SS Totally.
Nicholas I think that’s what we should all strive for, at least.
SC I think also in the way that you said, you know, straightness is like in the world all the time and it’s around you. Honestly, being happy or not even happy, just being like an existing queer person is like an act of resistance and an act of power in my perspective.
[music]
SS Man, this is I feel like the most philosophical interview we’ve done. This was amazing. I’m very jealous at how self aware you are and how in tune with your emotions you are. Thank you for sharing.
Nicholas
Well thank you. Yeah, it was wonderful conversation. We should like get together monthly.
[music]
SS Oh, my god, that was so good!
SC Nicholas is the best!
MP Nicholas is a hero.
SS I would definitely do a monthly get together with Nicholas.
SC Schedule me and sign me up. I feel like this interview is such a good like, you know, like we talk about these pretty serious topics. But it was fun. And Nicholas is so funny. You know, he’s obviously still figuring things out. It was nice that he let us in to hear that.
SS Yeah, and I just hope he finds that community that he needs because it is out there. It is totally out there for him and for everyone.
SC Chosen family!
MP I also found it really interesting how a lot of the people we’ve spoken to have — their lives now are very, very different and yet Nicholas is kind of still going through the same things. I mean, some things have changed. And I’m really glad that some things that he was worried about in his letter, like his relationship with his ex wife are really doing well. That’s so encouraging, but also some things that he’s still working through. And so it was just interesting having a conversation with someone who’s like still in a similar mindset to when they wrote the letter.
SC Yeah, it like shows us how you know like we’re writing to our future selves, but the future is unpredictable and you know, the parts, the parts that you’re living through are just as important or something.
SS Totally.
SC I hope we can get some sort of update from Nicholas now because just hearing this made me miss him.
SS Thanks again to Nicholas for sharing so much of your story with us. We loved talking to you. This podcast is an editaudio original production, hosted and produced by me Sophie Shin, Steph Colburn and Maria Passingham, and with help from our amazing team at editaudio, thank you. The music is from Audio Network. And a big thanks goes to Matt for creating FutureMe and collaborating with us on the show by getting us in touch with the letter writers. You can visit futureme.org to write your own letter and if you want to share your experience of using FutureMe, email us at hello@editaud.io. We’d love to talk to you. See you next time!
