Transcript for Hope This Finds Me Well Episode 4. Jenn: Finding Core Strength In The Wake of Abuse
Sophie Shin This episode contains content around mental health, and domestic violence.
Jennifer I think the struggle with when you marry someone is you say out loud in front of people, like in sickness and in health. And then you get into what that actually looks like. And you think health, like, oh, I’ll take care of you when you have a cold or, you know, like, you get cancer, whatever, you don’t really think about mental health. [theme music fades in]
SS You’re listening to Hope This Finds Me Well, a podcast about the past & future versions of ourselves and what we want to tell them. I’m Sophie, and with the help of my co-hosts Steph and Maria -
Steph Colbourn Hello!
Maria Passingham Hi Sophie!
SS I have conversations with people who previously sent messages to their future selves. Now they’ve been delivered, we want to know how they feel about what they wrote! In previous episodes we’ve touched on the struggles of dating and sustaining relationships — from ‘a season’ to a 30 year marriage. Today we’re talking love again, but the kind that’s not usually featured in Hollywood rom coms. As you’ll hear, the letter in question has so much packed in that we needed to pick apart, so I think we should get right to it.
SC Yeah! Let’s do it!
MP Okay, but jus before we do, I just want to say something. While remote recording is great on some levels — we can speak to anyone, anywhere in the world, we can wear what we want, we can sit where we want, it also has its drawbacks, the big one being that we’re often not in ideal recording spaces. This particular interview had more than its fair share of obstacles — some misplaced headphones, failing batteries, crappy adaptors, and also a few fun interruptions from fluffy friends… so tech hurdles, and fur-dles if you will. [SC & MP laugh]
SS Oh no… Oh no.
MP So that’s why our guest suddenly sounds much clearer at one point, and also explains any snoring or yapping you might hear in the background! Ok, admin out of the way, I’ll let SS introduce you to our guest!
SS She’s an entrepreneur in the design industry, and lives in Portland Oregon. Honestly, I think we should just roll the tape and hear her letter ’cause she’s awesome!
SC Alright, now let’s do it.
Jennifer “Dear future me. Since so much has happened in the four years between my last letter, I’ll send this one to three years from now, to 2020. It’s Wednesday afternoon in the quiet that lives only on garbage day, after the trucks have finally finished swarming the neighbourhood. As is standard, or when I write these emails, I haven’t had the best day. In my last letter I warned against marriage, only to get engaged a mere six months later. How did this happen? I asked as I sit here, in the throes of a mildly abusive marriage. Or maybe it’s truly abusive. I suppose there are happy times in every abusive marriage. The reason to keep hoping for change.
I deeply hope for change. Not because I don’t want to deal with divorce but because I’m in love and want it to work out. And today feels shitty because it doesn’t feel like it’s working. I can’t imagine what it’s like to have reliability in my marriage. I’m like the fool they warn you not to be. Walking on eggshells. If there’s anything good that’s come of it, it’s my deep and profound understanding of the need for non-attachment and even-temperedness, god I’ve got all that in spades. So weird to read your future, like your past self.
“Why are you just showering?” My husband screamed at me this morning desperately, the way you never want to witness someone scream. Because I’m unattached to the idea of having a life with him. I have to be. It’s the same way I imagine a mother responds when for the hundredth time her small child throws a loud messy fit. Just waiting it out, not leaving, but also not particularly concerned. For now financial dependence keeps us in the same house. We press restart, the memory fades, I fix whatever is broken, the dogs forget. Will this always be our marriage. How much worse am I going to get clearing the slate when we press restart? At nearly 31 years of age I know what it’s like to be in a failing marriage and abusive marriage, pinned on the best of intentions but besotted by mental illness.
On the radio heard that President Trump tweeted something about a reporter, something insulting her appearance — this was like news then! — a democrat came on and said something in such a tone that my heart sunk and I cried. I cried for women, from my own experience as a woman, the better years of my life wasted because I couldn’t find comfort in my own skin. I still can’t. The look on my dad’s face when I mentioned that I’m a feminist. And as a feminist, how do I find myself stuck in a marriage that even if I wanted I couldn’t afford to leave without giving up so much that I’ve worked so hard to cultivate.
Ask me if I know what day and time I go back to you because I know the exact day, the exact moment, driving to my massage appointment. The moment I decided I wasn’t going to be in a relationship. What happened? How did I end up engaged by Christmas? Was my gut telling me the right thing? Will we get through this? Will he get better and will overcoming such an obstacle make our marriage sometimes stronger? Or will he get better for a while only to relapse in 10 years and something terrible happens? I wonder what you know, future me.
I had the strangest dream last night that’s haunting me a bit today. It was about a guy I dated when I was 13. He was one grade younger than me. And I don’t remember why I dumped him. I dumped every guy when I was 13. In my dream he was driving me around present day. For some reason we stopped at his house which is a massive estate somewhere on the hills, he is a very successful doctor. I remember being in his bathroom and seeing his wife’s pyjamas on the shelf thinking “that’s how your life is, when you’re married to a rich man, you have pyjamas”. It was a very bizarre dream. There was a certain amount of sexual tension between us that was invigorating most especially because we both refused to indulge it out of respect for our marriages. At some point, we were in the water and I ran my hand across his chest as we swam past each other. It felt incredibly and perfectly in shape and masculine and I let out a small scream of despair, seeing as I was underwater, and no one would hear me. Soon we are back in his car winding through the hills.
If there’s one word to characterise your life in the summer of 2017, it’s unstable. Your marriage is unstable. Your husband is unstable, your career is unstable, your house is unstable — that was true. It’s crazy — the fucking state of the world is unstable. And everyone keeps talking about the loss of retail jobs. Amazon is taking over. You reread Franny and Zoey to try and understand why your English teacher gifted it to you so long ago. So you know to do things for the fat lady, do everything for the fat lady.
Oh, 33 year old Jen, how different will your life be? You’ll have had a new car for about a year now. What is it, another Prius? God, I hope not, you need a change. Anyways, the small period of quiet has been broken by a leaf blower nearby. Back to life. I secretly can’t wait for you to get this emboldened by the power of knowing the future. You are a queen to me, and I send nothing but love and reverence to you.”
SS I mean, first of all, I think thank you for sharing this letter with us, and like being able to talk about it, and… Are you still with the person that you were speaking of in the letter?
Jennifer No.
SS Okay.
MP Good.
SC Can we talk about that? Do you feel comfortable talking about that?
Jennifer I’ll talk about anything. I really honestly, this isn’t something I would normally do. Because I’m, I’m, I’m not a private person. But I also don’t like it’s like having attention on me, it’s uncomfortable.
SS Yeah that’s so fair.
Jennifer But I, I just read that letter. And I was like, there’s so much to say. So much that I’ve learned that I feel like I want to share.
SC Please share! Yeah. So you were in this relationship? Could you like give us a snapshot of it? Or, or a snapshot of you leaving it?
Jennifer Yeah. So that was June of 2017. So it was not that much longer that I ended up having to kick him out of the house. And yeah, I just, I was in this marriage that I mean, I kind of touched on that in the, in the email… where I got engaged pretty quickly, I got married. I just got married very quickly. And looking back on it, it’s sort of like, “oh, no, duh, that’s like the pattern of abusive relationship”, right? Like the guy comes in, and he’s really aggressive and charming. And you know, you get kind of like, swept up in it. And then before you know it, you’re like, you know, being shoved against the wall or whatever, you know… looking back on it. It’s very cliche, but living through it was totally different than that. And I don’t mean to, you know, I know this is like a public thing, and I don’t mean to sort of paint this person as a bad person. I love him so much. I’m so grateful for him for being in my life. You know, he was struggling with a mental illness. I don’t want to be like, Oh, this person is bad, you know, I just think people do bad things, they aren’t bad people.
So we got married after like a year and a half, I think. And we were together for a couple years, and it was just sort of it was, it was in Los Angeles and Hollywood, which is this toxic place. It’s beautiful, but it is so toxic. It was hard, you know, just he was in the industry. And so there was a lot of, it was like the build up and then and then kind of nothing happened. And there’s the stagnancy. And we both just became frustrated. And he, you know, took it out with aggression. And we tried, I tried, you know, I think this struggle, with when you marry someone is you say out loud in front of people, like in sickness and in health. And then you get into what that actually looks like. And you think health, like, oh, I’ll take care of you when you have a cold or, you know, like, you get cancer, whatever, you don’t really think about mental health. And I think a lot of people deal with that. It’s just as hard because, because I saw the good, and I saw how he was struggling, and I saw him hurting, and some really difficult things happened to him. So I sort of felt this duty to, like, be there and you know, and it’s not like he didn’t make an effort. Like he would go to therapy, you know, there… I just feel I want to remove this sort of character of an abusive relationship as like this evil guy, just like menacing or trying to ruin this woman’s life, or, you know, vice versa. Man- woman, because that happens too, and and sort of this line between what is truly abuse you know, I remember struggling with that a lot like, watching — it was, it was the year when that show about OJ came out, and there was a Big Little Lies, Harvey Weinstein like, and I mean, that sort of came a little later, but it was, I was always looking at it and going “okay, well, that’s not my marriage. And that’s not my marriage, and it’s not that bad, you know, so I’m okay.”
The other thing, I often felt the abuse was controlled in a way so that it was just self-sabotage. And so then it kind of got to a place of feeling bad about that. And I still believe that, but anyways, I just got to a point where I was in a moment where I feared for my life, like, I was actually scared for my life. And that’s when I said, “okay, you can’t do this anymore. This is ridiculous.” And I just, I said, “you have to, you know, you have to move out” and he moved out.
SS So sorry that happened.
SC Do you think it’s easier for you now to like, reflect back on it? Or has anything changed when you think back on that relationship? Like who you are now versus who you were when you were going through it?
Jennifer I guess I’m in a part of my life where I think about that time, and talk about it a lot. I don’t know. Well okay, I guess for some context, I just got married.
Yeah, two weeks ago now.
SS Oh, my God!
SC Congratulations!
Jennifer I just think about the contrast, I guess a lot, you know, of everything, especially like the wedding, but just my marriage and my relationship. And my relationship now is so good. It’s, like, stupid, it’s stupid. And I look at other people who don’t have relationships like this. And I’m like, no you, did you know, you can get this? Like, you can have a relationship like this? Like, you don’t need to put up with that. It’s just so I don’t know, like nothing I’ve ever experienced before. So I think about that, and I think about how that challenge in particular prepared me for this, like put, you know, put me in a place where I could have this in my life.
You guys real quick. I’m gonna go plug in these other air pods. Because I’m worried that mine are gonna die.
SS Yeah. No worries.
Jennifer So I’ll be right back. [music] What are you guys barking in at? Don’t you guys wanna be on the podcast? Come on! This is Ike.
SS Hi Ike. Oh my god.
Jennifer Ike is my good boy.
SS So cute! I wish you could see dogs on a podcast.
Jennifer I know! All right.
SS All right. Also I wondered if… One thing… Oh! Bye.
One thing that also stood out to me about this letter is that you mentioned feminism and you say I cried for women, for my own experience as a woman…. Did this experience kind of put perspective on your, your own feminism and your own morals and values and the way you look at that?
Jennifer I think that at that time specifically, it was just a really hard time for women. But I guess I see my, my reference to feminism and this letter in particular as sort of guilt? Guilt. I absolutely think of myself as a feminist. I feel like we all have kind of our own feminism. Like it kind of means different things to all women, which is fine, at least we have it right? I think I sort of was feeling like I needed to somehow include it in there. You know, like, oh, “I’m, I’m in this abusive marriage, and I’m financially dependent on this person, but like, I’m still a feminist, don’t worry,” you know, that’s the centre of how I see it in there. And like, the sort of the shorthand I use for my dad’s face when I say I’m a feminist. I mean, surely I’ve never said to my Dad, “I’m a feminist”, and he’s like, made a face. That’s never happened. But, you know, how can I sort of encompass that nuance relationship into one sentence?
SS Mm hmm.
SC
It’s the black and white. I think, people also are like, if you’re a feminist, you have to be, a good feminist, which means that you have to be a feminist in the best way and the Best Feminist. And so like, you would never be a good feminist and like, not make as much money as your husband or whatever the the like, weird thing is, it’s just gatekeeping. To make women suppressed again by other women.
Jennifer Yeah
MP You say as well, that you you think that, that you, I guess the ‘you’ this year, is like, emboldened by the knowledge of what’s gone. Do you think you are?
Jennifer Yes! Wait, what did I say? I have to read it again.
“Emboldened by the power of knowing the future”.
Yes, absolutely. I mean, now it’s the past, right? Like I’m emboldened by the, the power of knowing the past. And everything that I went through. Really, in all the years, I lived in Los Angeles, I mean, I can just call that a time period. I said this when I, when I left California, because I was like, how am I going to leave California, you know, I just, I thought it was the most magical place like, I didn’t grow up there, I sort of made my way out west over my life. And so it was just like California was this amazing. accomplishment, and living there was so wonderful. But while I lived there, I learned how to be happy, like no matter what’s happening. And that’s like, the only reason I could leave because I was like, whatever happens, wherever else, I’m gonna be happy, it doesn’t matter.
SC Do you have advice for other people to like, find happiness in yourself, instead of you know, in a city or in another human or whatever else we rely on to make ourselves…
Jennifer Yeah, I really, I really think we should get rid of this idea that what works for someone works, you know, I really don’t think the same things work for everyone. So I always want to give that disclaimer, because I don’t want to be preachy. But the way that I got through all of it, even the abusive marriage was, I wouldn’t have been able to do it without yoga and weed. And I say both of those together, because I got into yoga in LA, like, it’s just there’s a really good yoga culture in LA. LA is the city of people in recovery, and that’s kind of ultimately why I had to leave because I was like, I want to be recovered. I don’t want to be, I don’t want to be in this constant process. But I fell into the yoga there pretty quickly. And it was really like four years in, doing yoga, which is crazy, where it finally clicked in me and I just, you know, if I don’t want to make this a thing of all about yoga, but I feel like if I could, yoga is a profound metaphor for everything in your life, like whatever you are dealing with in life, you will find something that corresponds to it in yoga. Llike, people think, oh, it’s just stretching, or it’s this new age shit, or, you know, or, like, whatever they think… my dog’s crying at the door.
[music]
Just you, not you.
But but it really is so much. And I’ve been doing it now for seven years, and it’s, still I find new things within it. But like this idea of balancing your strength and your flexibility, every physical pose you’re doing in yoga, you’re balancing your strength and your flexibility at the same time, which is really hard to do. But like once you do it in your body, you can do it in your mind. But I say yoga and weed, because yoga is really fucking hard. Like, it is so much harder than you even think when you first start doing it. Because when you first started doing it, you’re not even doing it right. You don’t even, you’re doing the poses, but there’s so much like strength in your body that you don’t even realise it’s there. Which is a metaphor. I’m telling you everything is a metaphor.
SS
No, I love that.
Jennifer It’s so hard that I would not have been able to withstand it, like for me I mean, I wouldn’t, I don’t always smoke weed before yoga. But for me, if I was feeling really burnt out, I would definitely smoke weed because it just allows you to get into your body and sort of get out of your head, you know, so you’re in a really hard pose, and your body’s really struggling, but you can get out of that, you know, it goes back to us saying, I can do this, right, but you can you stop hearing your brain go, you’re gonna fall is this, this is too much, this is too hard, that you can’t sustain this, like you stop hearing that.
And again, like, it’s not for everybody, right, like people react differently to weed. But for me personally, it was, the combination of the two of them is definitely how I’ve been able to sustain my practice for seven years and get to where I’ve gotten. But I mean, some people might not need it. But anyway, that’s, that’s how I did it. That’s how I got through.
SS
Oh… Ok…
[music]
MP AS ANNOUNCER We interrupt this podcast to announce that at this point we lost contact.
Might we suggest you enjoy this little ditty and brace yourself for the much improved audio quality that comes from fully wired, over ear-headphones.
SC A lot of what you were talking about was this movement from getting out of your head and into your body… Did you feel like you were at a point in your life where you were especially out of your body? I don’t know if that’s the right words to use?
Jennifer Oh my gosh, I don’t think I was ever in my body my whole life. I just, I mean, I mentioned that in a letter to read, like finding comfort my own skin, I lost like, a decade of my life to an eating disorder in my early 20s. So I just had no, I just was not in my body. I didn’t even know what that meant. You know, like, it was all in my head, I had so much anxiety growing up, which was the eating disorder, and how I mean, why it manifested. So that was how I overcame my eating disorder, which, you know, I think is why I kept doing it, when my marriage got challenging, because it was just sort of this haven.
I mean,there are some things, especially as we get older, that are really helpful, just stretching and just like release for your body is really important, like, the space to get away from our emotions, sort of like step aside. And I remember reading about even like, sort of the parallels between Eastern medicine and physics, you know, because I’m, like, a very logical person, and I want to be able to rationalise everything and understand it, and, and if I can’t, then I’m like, you know, whatever. So I was like, ok, well, if it has roots in physics, you know, maybe it’s real. And I kind of got into that. And I started doing a lot of specific things. Like I would do, like, write out my perfect day, or, I don’t know, I can’t remember them all. But I was like, doing a lot of reading and, you know, just sort of retraining your thoughts. And I saw, even though my life was chaotic, and getting harder, I was dealing with it better and better. So I kind of saw that you know, how your thoughts affect your life.
I remember the time where I was really like, “oh, I get this”. It’s… I heard someone say, I don’t know, on a podcast or something. That manifestation is. It’s basically a prayer, right? Like, it’s the same thing. When you sort of focus on what you want, you know, versus focusing on what you don’t want. Like, we think “I don’t want to be sick, I really don’t want to be sick, I just don’t want to be sick”, you’re going to get sick, because you even though you’re saying I don’t want this, you’re still focusing on the sickness. So you have to kind of turn that around and think…
SS I want to be healthy?
Jennifer I’m well. I am well, not even I want to be, because that sort of implies you don’t have it. Just “I am well”, and sort of thinking to yourself, like how you feel when you’re well and focusing on that feeling of wellness, right? Like, and then wellness will come? I don’t know, there’s so many ways I’ve tried to explain this to people because I want to click for people because I have seen it happen in my life. And I feel like when I don’t want to be like one of those fanatics, like I have these friends who are you know, they get caught up in like MLMs and are like, “these products will work for you”. Like, “just do this 30 day cleanse and you’re gonna feel great”. Like I don’t want to, I don’t want to sound like that.
SC It’s not, it’s not magic. Like I think people think like manifestation… It’s like you tell yourself something, and then the universe presents it to you. And the universe is like this magical fairy that comes down and is like, “oh, you want to be rich? Here’s a million dollars”. Like, no, that obviously doesn’t fucking happen. I mean, maybe some people believe that and that’s great for you. But like, that’s not, that’s not science. But like there is lsome sort of like power in the way that you’re thinking that will make you more likely to see opportunities where you can make a million dollars and maybe accept those into your life as something that you somewhat deserve. And and start focusing on ways to go towards that.
Jennifer That’s, exactly. That’s perfect. I love that.
I talk about…. I’m like, “oh, your life is so unstable, right?” And I think about life right now, and how I didn’t even know what instability could look like at that time. You know, like, right now, I mean, my life, I don’t want to complain, like I’m working, I have two businesses, but knowing that I could lose my business sort of overnight, because I’m in the hospitality industry, it has created this low level instability all the time, and I think we’re all feeling that, right? It’s the most instability, ever, right? And, and I’m lucky because I do have the stability of my marriage, my relationship… But I just think about how he would be dealing with this time now, if I hadn’t gone through that, thank God, I just had no choice but to become comfortable with instability and to become comfortable with discomfort, you know, and that brings me back to yoga, the most important thing is like you teach yourself how to be comfortable, when you’re uncomfortable.
[music]
That’s so powerful, that can get you through anything that happens to you. to just have your body trained to do that.
SC I mean to me, what’s beautiful is like the things that you list in your letter, you’re like, this is unstable, this is unstable, this is unstable. But, I feel like you were unstable. And now you’ve found this like stability in yourself. And so it like doesn’t matter what things are unstable, because you’re there to weather the storm.
Jennifer In yoga, it’s called, um, it’s called bandhas. Which is basically like muscles like that are like in your groyne. And when you first start to do yoga, like I remember people talking about these muscles, and I’d be like, I don’t have I don’t have those muscles. Like, what, what is that? And I remember when it clicked for me, once my, one of my main yoga teachers, she got pregnant, and she was so pregnant, and she just like went up into a handstand. And I was like, “how? You don’t have any ab muscles? Like, how are you doing that?” And she was like, she was like, “you don’t get up with your abs, you get up with your bandhas”. And they’re these muscles that are like, in the core of your being like, right. And I noticed like, even if I don’t practice for a while, if I’m on vacation, those muscles sort of stay strong. Whereas like, my other muscles will kind of like fatigue and struggle a bit. But like, once you sort of access that strength and that power that’s like in your core, your rest your body just kind of like moves around it. And that’s how I think of that. Like I have this strength. It feels like a superpower. Like my husband’s like very into Star Wars, but we always have these conversations. I’m like, “Jedis are Yogis”, like, that’s all that this is like, I have the fucking force. Like, that’s how, that’s how I feel, like I can like move things. You have an inner strength and you pivot around it. And no matter what happens, it’s just sort of once you access it, you don’t lose it, I guess is what I’m saying.
SC To me, even if you didn’t do yoga, like you’ve accessed an amount of your core strength.
Jennifer Yes!
SS I am not a huge Star Wars fan, but I would like to think that Jennifer is or would be a Jedi. Maybe is, who knows! Anyways, I think I’m gonna watch Star Wars in like a whole new light now. But, speaking of Jenn’s new husband… I think we were all pretty curious to find out a bit more about him, especially after how she described their relationship earlier, it was just so lovely.
SC Yes!
SC You said like I feel stupid. Like this relationship’s so good it feels stupid.
Jennifer Yeah, my, my current husband, he came out of a similar situation, was with someone who had mental illness. But I remember saying to him at one point, like, because it was very quickly, like, awesome, wherever you’re just I was like, I didn’t think I could feel this way about someone when you were an adult. Like I thought it was just kind of a stupid thing. When you were a kid where you’re just like, oh my god, I love this person. You know, like, I remember saying to him though, like, “I just I feel like I deserve this”. I remember him saying the same thing. And I think maybe it was a little different in terms of what we were talking about. Like he, he, he kind of came out of relationship where he was putting up with a lot. Like we both sort of just repeatedly in our lives, found ourselves in relationships where we were taking care of someone, right, like that was our pattern. So, I think we got to the point in our lives at the same time where we were like, I don’t want to do this anymore. You know, I want something healthy. And that’s how we ended up together.
SC What is a healthy relationship to you? Like comparatively to one that was not?
Jennifer Yeah, it’s, I guess it’s… equality is probably the most important thing like both people sort of pulling their weight. Even in my last relationship, like I say, financial independence, but he didn’t work. I was the one who worked a lot. I had like multiple things going on. And definitely not financial equality but like just pulling your weight in whatever ways you can, you know, like we, we just bought a house and so like, I do all the cleaning, but he does all the yard work. You know, I think it’s important to sort of have those balances like last night he was like, “will you help me take the trash out?” and I was kind of like “well, I cleaned the house, so I shouldn’t have to take out the trash”. And he was just like, “what? Like get up!”. You know, “help me take this trash out”, like, you know, so there’s this, that I think that’s important, that one person doesn’t feel like they’re, they’re carrying more of the load.
SC I wanted to ask. And if you don’t feel comfortable answering this, that’s fine too. Now that you have some space from this relationship, do you feel like there were signs that you saw going into it?
Jennifer Um, I definitely saw them at the time. I mean, I think there was a point I got to where I was, felt a little in over my head. And then I think also going back to what I said early on, about wanting to support someone with mental illness. Um, but yes, I mean, for sure. It was, I mean, there was fighting from the get go, you know, but I was just kind of naive. And I thought, oh, you know, that that happens in relationships that people fight, which is true, but you know, to a certain extent.
Um, I guess to answer your question, yes, there, there were absolutely signs, like I remember at one point, we had gone to visit my, my, my family. And that was just sort of this weird thing that happened with one of the kids like, we were, you know, playing around sort of making — I wasn’t — but like, everyone was sort of making fun of him. And then he ended up getting upset. And he started to cry. He was like, I don’t know, as a young kid. And, and my ex was sort of like, not sympathetic and just kind of said something crass and left. And, and then and then my family was kind of all weird about it the next day. And I remember very clearly this moment for and he like, and that’s the other thing, like he was very good at apologising, very good at atonement, where you would sort of forgive him because he would have this, this. I don’t know, charming humility that you were just like, I used to think all the time, like none of my neighbours, like when we got a divorce and I would tell them, I’m sure they all thought it was me or, you know, none of them would ever in their wildest dreams, think what was going on was going on, because you just when you knew him, you wouldn’t think that. But I remember specifically thinking I have to, I have to cancel the wedding, I have to get, I have to pull out of this right? And then sort of going back, going back home and forget it and thinking of what that entailed, and just putting it all together.
And again, like there’s the good there, right? There’s the dream that you have with the person, like I think we hold on to the dream so much longer than the person, you know. And that’s the harder thing to let go of, like, oh, we have this goal. And also just being at a time in my life, I think, why I ended up in the marriage in the first place is because I was like, I want a family like I’m there. Now. I’m like, I’m ready. I’ve done all the other stuff in life, like, I just want to, like, you know, raise a human and like, have a stupid conversation with them about whatever, like, I just kind of want to go inward at this point in my life. I’m watching a friend go through this right now. Where she’s like, I’m breaking up with him. I’m doing it. I did it. And then kind of like going back. Right? Like, you have to do things in your own time. Right. Like, should I have gotten out of that relationship sooner? Should I have? Yeah, probably. But everyone has to sort of do things when they’re ready. on their own timeline. You know, I mean, and I think that’s the hardest thing about loving people, is, is letting them do that, you know, like, when you, when you can see it also, clearly, and they can’t see it. But there’s, there’s nothing you can do. You can’t like giving your opinion is useless. Because they’re in it. So.
SC So what do you think allowed you to see it for yourself?
Jennifer Um, I don’t know that it’s what made me see it is, I think it was I saw it pretty clearly, very early on. But being ready, being ready, I think it took me a long time to be ready to step out of it. And not everyone gets to this point. I mean, I watch people who are like, in their 80s and they and they are still like, everything happens to me, you know, like, everything’s always happening to me and don’t realise like, they’re the common denominator and and they need to figure out what they’re doing. And it’s especially weird to be in an abusive relationship and to say, “what am I doing wrong?” You know, that’s ultimately where I got to, where I was just like, “I’m responsible for this. I’m responsible for everything that’s happening to me”. I guess, point being that it was something I already saw. I just didn’t have the strength to do anything about it. I didn’t have the courage to do anything about it. I just over time, I sort of did it in small ways, you know, and, and then I could do it in big ways. And yeah.
SS That’s amazing. That’s beautiful.
SC
People deal with shit like this for like lifetimes, you know, and never, never are able to, like, face it or get out of it or, you know, grow from it and like you’ve done all three and you’re like,
Jennifer I know! That’s why I’m just so grateful for it. Because I do think like, I have so much more life to live. And I think it’s a big reason I want to have kids even though things are insane right now. It’s like, that’s the best thing I can think that I can do. Raise someone, right, like pass on all this stuff that I’ve learned to that person and then they’ll do the same and it’ll kind of keep going and things will go forward and like will the world end someday? Yeah. Will things get a lot more difficult to live on this planet? Yeah. Um, Ike won’t be here for it. I feel like I digress so much. And I’m like “why am I talking about what I’m talking about?”.
MP That’s why your letter’s so long!
Jennifer Actually, I feel, I felt, I was like that letter. I was like, oh that letter’s pretty like nicely con- like round and concise actually for the way I was feeling!
SS No, yeah, I love your letter. It’s very dark, but also there’s like these, like little moments of humour and and positivity that like I love. Also, did you get another Prius?
Jennifer “…what is it? Another Prius? God I hope not, you need a change…”
Jennifer No, I didn’t! I did not. I got um, I got an SUV because I’ve moved up here and I just started a job where I needed a big car and because I was like, “no, I’m not getting this car again!” But my husband does have the same car! So like it’s still in my life.
MP You can’t avoid it.
Jennifer And yeah, I don’t know about the dream like I remember this dream. I mean, I’m sure because I wrote about it, I remember it, but it was just this very like lucid….. I keep saying in here like “oh, it’s a bizarre dream” and I’m like this is pretty normal dream. I don’t know why you keep saying that.
I mean I always remember the thing about the pyjamas right like when you’re married to a rich man, you have pyjamas, because that was the thought I had my dream right? Like that’s not a thought I would like have in real life. But it’s sort of like this ‘dream me’ having this thought about these pyjamas? I don’t know I think it’s really fascinating.
SS That’s so funny.
Jennifer And I do have pyjamas now. So…
SC Yeah!
Jennifer I bought them myself!
MP Yeah cos you don’t need a man for pyjamas!
SS So proud of you Jen.
[music]
Well, you say you are a queen to yourself in this letter. And I just want to say you are queen to us. And you do have the force. You’re basically Leia. So… thank you, I don’t know. I’m just very inspired by you. So like, thank you so much for taking the time to talk.
Jennifer Thank you guys.
SC Thank you!
SS So nice meeting you and your dogs.
Jennifer Yeah
SC Please tell Ike that we love him.
Jennifer Ike! That’s Ike, that’s Rocco back there.
SS I need to show you how much your dog looks like my dog…Archie? I can’t see him, where is he? Archie!
Jennifer Okay.
SS Oh wait, he’s errr…
Jennifer Oh! Licking his junk…
SS Archie!
ARCHIE [barks]
[music rise]
SC Oh my gosh, I’m so happy Archie made an appearance in an episode!
SS Yeah, licking his junk.
SC Dog podcast for the win! My life long dream of creating a dog podcast has finally semi come to fruition.
SS We all know that it was gonna happen at some point.
MP I hope he enjoyed talking to Jennifer as well, or hearing what she had to say at least. I feel like he was trying to say something.
SC The dog stole the thunder at the end. But yeah, it was such a good interview and like, again, she just seems like such a cool, I don’t know, she has the force! You know? Like she seems like she’s grown. I don’t know if that’s the right word.
SS Yeah. I also think for someone who’s been through so much, and just being able to be so open about it, and it seems like she genuinely wants to be open about her story so that other people going through similar things could maybe find support or find comfort in her story. So I think that’s a beautiful thing about Jennifer as well.
SC Yeah, and I especially love having any opportunity to paint a realistic picture of like, any relationship, but especially abusive relationships because I think that narrative that it’s like, you know this black and white thing, like ‘oh you’re abusive or you’re not’ and like surely it’s the abusive relationships you see on tv or whatever, the worst possible one. So anything that doesn’t fit that mold, might not signal abuse in your head, even though it may still be an unsafe environment for you. So, I so appreciate that she was able to share some of her story and that she’s now out of it, and with this awesome new partner. It’s so exciting! Good news in the world!
MP Absolutely.
SS Love it.
SS Jenn, we really thank you for spending so much time with us and being so open. What an honest conversation. And congratulations to you and your husband! This podcast is an editaudio original production, hosted and produced by Sophie Shin, Steph Colbourn, and Maria Passingham, with input and support from the whole team! Audio Network provided a lot of the music, and thanks to Matt for creating FutureMe, and collaborating with us on this show by getting us in touch with letter writers! You can visit FutureMe [dot] org to write your own letter, and if you have one you want to discuss, email us at hello@editaud.io, you can find the email in the shownotes.
